--- In CryonicsEurope@y..., "Trygve Bauge" <trygve.bauge@c...> wrote:
> What are the manufacturers, suppliers and costs of LN2 in the
Netherlands?
> Where does one contact such, any web pages?
See http://www.hoekloos.nl (this is the main supplier of LN2 and
other cryogenic gases, as well as related gear, in the Netherlands).
Their new "fancy" website isn't very compatible with my (old)
browser, and I couldn't find an English section. You could still give
it a try if you're interested. They were rather vague about pricing
when I contacted them, but I think the figures would be more or less
comparable to yours (a bit higher maybe, especially regarding the
LN2, which is rather expensive when bought in relatively small
quantities).
> What are the taxes or surcharges on equipment?
The regular tax on most products is about 18%.
> What are the legal obstacles?
As is the case in many (most?) countries, the deceased can only be
buried (on land or at sea), cremated, or used for scientific
research/medical training (as body parts, mostly) by licensed
institutions. Cryonics, i.e. the freezing of bodies is not
specifically mentioned in Dutch law, but is illegal by default since
it is explicitly forbidden to preserve human remains (this includes
embalming etc.). Maybe it would be possible to use the research
loophole, or maybe there are other, more obscure loopholes in the
local laws, but a specialized legal expert that I've contacted about
this several years ago wasn't very optimistic. I've also repeatedly
contacted the Brain Bank about this, but never got a useful reply.
The already limited interest in local storage that existed within the
local cryonics group was fading at this point, and because I wouldn't
be able to run/afford a cryonics installation on my own anyway, I've
started to investigate other, more promising, possibilities (such as
plastination, for example). Conclusion: cryogenic storage in the
Netherlands may not be significantly more difficult/expensive than in
Norway, but it's certainly not easier/cheaper either, and therefore
not very interesting to pursue right now, IMO. I think it's better to
focus on the Norwegian situation, and keep the Dutch option as a
backup.
> And how many people interested in cryonics do you know in the
Netherlands,
Currently, there seem to be approx. 5 other "serious" cryonicists,
who either are signed up with CI, or will do so in the near future.
Another 10 or so (possibly more) have varying degrees of interest,
and might eventually sign up. I have no idea how many people would be
interested in low-budget, local storage (for themselves), but maybe
some of the above cryonicists would be willing & able to help out
with your project. If/when we have set something up, there will no
doubt be some serious interest among the local poor / sick / elderly
/ misers & others who can't or won't get a "regular"
suspension.
> and where can one get hold of these?
A few are on this list. The rest can be contacted by sending an email
to info@transcedo.org , which will automatically be forwarded to the
mailing list of our local transhumanist group. Eventually, we will
have a separate cryonics section, but for the time being Transcedo (
http://www.transcedo.org ) is the only more or less "organized"
cryonics-related interest group around here.
> Thus one would have to set aside enough investments to pay for USD
1850 a
> year
> in electricity and USD 1700 a year in room rental, and USD 16,000
every 10
> years or so
> to replace the freezer. This could of course be divided on 7
people.
> e.g. The storage of each head would run USD 500 a year and USD
2,200 every
> 10 years
> when the freezer is at full capacity.
> Otherwise the expenses would have to be split on fewer heads.
>
> With 5 perent return on investment above inflation, one would have
to set
> aside an initial investment of about USD 14,000 to pay for longrun
storage
> of a head.
I think we'll need to somehow reduce this amount even further; US
14,000 would still be more than twice as much in local (Dutch)
currency, which is a lot of money -- too much for many last-minute
cases which don't have life insurance etc. The cheaper the service,
the more people will be able to make use of it (and thus help to
spread the costs), and the greater the chances that relatives etc.
won't object (or lose interest, if payments have to be made on an
annual basis).
> I still think it would be less expensive (but more cumbersome) to
use LN2
> for heads too.
Maybe, but according to the figures that you forwarded, electrical
freezers seem to be both cheaper up-front, and cheaper to maintain
(electricity vs LN2 costs).
> Of course suspension would have to be paid separately.
Yes, this would be optional.
> > it may be possible, according to the Revco
> > website, to buy slightly damaged (but technically
> > still fully functional and relaible) specimens at
> > discount prices.
>
> On what page did you find that offer, please post the web address.
It was somewhere at the Revco website. At least, that's how I
remember it; couldn't find the text during my last visit.
> > Apparently, they have a local branch here in the
> > Netherlands (according to the reply you posted on
> > Cryonet), so maybe I could go check them out in person
> > should you seriously consider buying one.
> >
> Please ask them what the shipping cost to Norway would be,
> and what the warranties are and what a service contract cost,
> it might be useful to have such a piece of information on hand.
Ok if you give me the Dutch contact address, I'll forward the info
if/when I get it. Note that such companies are notoriously vague
when it comes to giving exact price figures.
> Robert has been kind enough to provide me with the name and phone
number
> for the company that built their latest glassfiber dewar:
What about the previous (self-made?) models -- would it be possible
to make these/have them made in Europe/Norway? Would this be cheaper
than ordering them from the US company (quite expensive). It's
essential that costs are kept to an absolute minimum if this venture
is to be successful.
> How does the plastination process differ from storage in amber:
> e.g. storage in resins or for that matter mumification?
See below for a general & more detailed description. Plastination is
basically an advanced means of getting polymers into the *whole*
specimen (not just around it), so that decay is stopped at every
level and the structure remains more or less at it was at the moment
of death. It combines the best elements of mummification, chemical
preservation and "normal" resin-encasement, which by themselves
aren't sufficient for long-term preservation, but together just might
do the trick. Of course, a plastinated brain could also be stored
cryogenically, if so desired.
The main advantages of first plastinating and then freezing would be
a) much easier and safer transport to the cryo facility and b) the
possibility to store the brain in a normal freezer, or even at room
temperature, "indefinitely" should the cryonics venture fail (or if
there's a prolonged power failure/LN2 supply problem etc.).
Plastination would massively increase one's safety margins.
Disadvantages: 1) added costs (unknown at this point, may be as
little as 2-3,000 US) 2) Plastination may inherently cause some kind
of irreversible damage to memory/identity structures, more so than
(straight) freezing (this is also currently unknown, though
apparently preservation "down to the microscopic level" *is*
feasible). I'll know more if/when I get a reply from the IfP.
-----
The technique consists of four main steps:
1) Fixation can be done by almost all conventional fixatives.
2) Dehydration is achieved mainly by acetone because acetone also
serves as the intermediary solvent during impregnation.
3) Forced impregnation is the central step in plastination: vacuum
forces the acetone out of and the polymer into the specimen.
4) Hardening (Curing): Finally the impregnated specimen is hardened
by exposing it to a gaseous hardener (silicone), or by UVA-light and
heat (polyester, epoxy). Plastinated specimens are perfect for
teaching, particularly for neuroanatomy. Silicone plastinated brains
are useful because they can be grasped literally and they are almost
everlasting. Polyester plastination of brain slices provides an
excellent distinction of gray and white matter and thus a better
orientation.
The SILICONE S 10 - Standard Procedure
The S 10 technique is the standard technique in Plastination.
Specimen Impregnation with S 10 results in opaque, more or less
flexible, and natural looking specimens. The procedure consists of
the four main steps of Plastination, besides the specimen preparation
and dissection before.
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------
FIXATION
Fixation can be achieved by all usual fixatives as formaldehyde
solution, Kayserling solution etc. Hollow organs must be dilated
during fixation as well as during dehydration and gas curing.
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------
DEHYDRATION
Dehydration removes the specimen fluid, as well as some fat. In this
step tissue fluid is replaced with an organic solvent. Either alcohol
or acetone may be used as a dehydrant for Plastination. Acetone is
used in most cases because acetone also serves as the intermediary
solvent during the next step - forced impregnation. To minimize
specimen shrinkage, dehydration is done in cold (- 15 ° C to 25
° C) acetone. If the removal of fat is also desired the dehydrated
specimen must be kept in acetone at room temperature for some time.
An acetone amount of 10 times the specimen weight is best for good
results. Dehydration is finished when the water content is less than
1 %.
Equipment: deep freezer (explosion proof or motor and compressor
removed and placed in a different room), acetonometer (to measure the
content of water).
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------
FORCED IMPREGNATION
Forced impregnation is the central step of Plastination. In this step
the intermediary solvent (acetone) is replaced with a curable polymer
(BIODUR® S 10). The silicone polymer S 10 is mixed with a curing
agent BIODUR® S 3 (1 part S 3 and 100 parts S 10) which commences
the process of end-to-end linkage of the molecules. This linking is
enhanced at room temperature, however, it is very slow when kept in
the freezer at -15 ° C to -25 ° C. The dehydrated specimen is
submerged in the cold 8-15 ° C to -25 ° C) polymer mixture.
After some days of immersion, vacuum is applied to it. Vacuum is
increased gradually to boil the intermediary solvent (acetone), which
has a lower boiling point (+56 ° C) out of the specimen.
Impregnation is monitored by watching the bubble formation on the
surface of the mixture and by a vacuum gauge. Vacuum is complete when
the pressure is around 5 mm Hg. Equipment: deep freezer (explosion
proof or motor and compressor removed and placed in a different
room), vacuum chamber (e.g. Heidelberg plastination kettle), vacuum
pump (with a pumping speed of 1,5 m³/min. for 15 l polymer mixture
or 3 m³/min. for 30 l polymer mixture)
--------------------------------------------------
----------------------
GAS - CURING (HARDENING)
Finally the polymer inside the specimen has to be cured (hardened).
This is achieved by exposing the impregnated specimen to a gaseous
hardener (BIODUR® S 6). S 6 is a liquid that vaporizes at room
temperature. The impregnated specimen and a bowl filled with S 6 is
placed in an tightly closed chamber for several weeks. To keep the
environment for curing dehumidified a bowl with a desiccant (e.g.
calcium chloride) is also placed in the curing chamber. To enhance
the curing procedure air may be bubbled through the fluid S 6. For
complete curing inside the specimen the specimen should be kept in a
plastic bag for several weeks.
Equipment:plastic box, stretch foil, membrane (aquarium) pump.
For more info: http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/index.htm &
http://www.kfunigraz.ac.at/anawww/plast/s10.html
Received on Wed Jul 04 16:09:56 2001
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed Sep 17 2003 - 15:03:15 CEST