Fw: Assumptions, Australian case

----- Original Message -----
From: <cbenatar@csc.com.au>
To: <smjc@svrc.uq.edu.au>
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 4:36 AM
Subject: Assumptions

> see *** comments
>
> Message #16725
> Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:51:35 +1000
> From: Simon Carter <smjc@svrc.uq.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: Trygve's response to Simon (#16703)
>
> Hi Trygve,
>
> > If you know any other Melbourne cryonisists , please let me know
> > of where to contact these.
>
> I understand you (and 'Elizabeth') have already contacted some of the
> cryonicists in Australia, in particular Melbourne, and that they have
> chosen not to respond or suggested that this is not a case with which
> they wish to be involved.
>
> *** I believe you might be refering to me amongst others. I have been
> discussing the matter with Elizabeth through email. Neither of the above
> statements are 100% true. I have been responding and I have taken certain
> intrest in the case.
>
> Yes, I know all the cryonicists in Melbourne but am unable to provide
> you with their contact details without their express permission. You
> should know that sveral of us have recently discussed the case via email
> with none of those participating wishing to be involved. In summary, our
> consensus was that this is a hopeless case, likely to lead to grief for
> all involved and continuing sorrow. The possibility that 'Elizabeth' has
> ulterior motives is also a concern.
>
> *** I don't really care if there is "no possibility of revival" since I am
> not in a position to judge future technology and existing technology
cannot
> tell me definitivly the level of information loss, the rate of loss or the
> level of redundancy. Simply put, it is all speculation - ALL OF IT (yes
the
> dreaded caps) even best case suspensions. Discrediting Elizabeth is
> discrediting yourself.
>
> *** If I were to be frozen in such a state and in such a manner, I would
> rate my chances of revival with even 10% of my memories and personality
> intact as near but not quite zero. In other words the probability of
> preferred revival is vanishingly low to the point some would consider it
> zero but in a mathematical sense there is still an incredibly small
chance.
>
> *** Never the less, I would still choose for my poor state remains to be
> frozen. The reason for this is that I have nothing to lose. If I can never
> be revived then I have lost nothing since I was dead anyway and therefore
> unable to benefit from the money anyway. My instruction at death will
> include a minimum amount (percentage) of intact memories demonstrated as
> retrievable before reanimation. This will apply regardless of how good a
> suspension I get.
>
> > Elizabeth called me early on and spoke to me for about one hour
> > on the phone.
> >
> > She has sent me an e-mail, address and phone number.
>
> Thanks for the info. Are you not concerned? You hint of having
> suspicions.
>
> *** How do you relate your comment to the sentences above it?
>
> > (the address seems a little fishy, and some of her letters
> > look like she has copied in paragraphs from others, maybe
> > based on e-mails from other cryonisists.)
>
> Well, I don't buy cutting and pasting as a reason for improvement in
> 'her' written English skills. Its just too good and too sudden. I cite
> the email at the end of your post: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16683
>
> *** So do you have a degree in language skills of foreign nationals?
> Perhaps you have some personal experience to call upon? From my
perspective
> I see someone that she is struggling the best she can with a second
> language. My experience comes from my Russian wife who also had great
> difficulty with English at first. I wrote and recieved hundreds of
> letters/emails from her and they were not disimilar in the sort of
mistakes
> made and the improvement and then loss in quality. This change was due to
> effort put in, tiredness, help from others and the difficulty of the
> language used.
>
> ... and 'she' even found out how to turn off the caps lock in that one!
>
> *** Sarcasm, really not very mature! Have you ever tried typing on a
> Cyrillic keyboard? It is not uncommon not to look at the screen as you are
> typing using an unfamiliar keyboard. Once you look at the screen and see
> the wrong case, you are not going to be keen to retype the whole lot. Not
> everyone knows how to change case on existing text.
>
> ... and at the end of this one: http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16687
> (its back to form with the capitalisation but the
> English is markedly better than the earlier efforts)
>
> *** See 2 comments above
>
> > Otherwise she appeared more calm, sincere and straightforward
> > than many other distressed people pursuing post mortem
> > suspensions that I have spoken to over the years.
>
> The calm seems in contrast to many of 'her' emails.
>
> *** It would appear that she is understandably traumatised by the loss of
> her father and is experiencing mood swings.
>
> > Many seems to lie about when their relative died and what
> > he or she died from.
> > Elizabeth volunteered herself, in our very first conversation
> > that her father had died several months prior.
>
> Now I'm getting confused! Trygve, are you are accusing 'Elizabeth' of
> "lying"? That's my job, mate!
>
> *** Try reading what Trygve wrote again. Perhaps you missed it or maybe
the
> broken English is confusing you so here is a "translation into aussie":
> It is Trygve's experience that in OTHER cases, people lie about the length
> of time that the loved one has been dead and lie about the cause of death.
> Elizabeth on the other hand volunteered the truth (despite it being a
> negative truth) in the very first conversation Trygve had with her. The
> truth that she revealed to Trygve on that FIRST conversation was that her
> father had DIED SEVERAL MONTHS AGO.
> So it seems that Trygve is actually saying the opposite ie that she showed
> considerable honesty by offering the information upfront unlike oher cases
.
>
>
> I've been perusing the archives tho' and think I know what you are
> saying. 'Elizabeth', despite numerous requests from several people was
> quite unwilling to provide detail about 'her' supposed father's death. I
> recall a date in early June being mentioned at first (but don't have the
> time to search right now - is this correct?). However in
> http://www.cryonet.org/archive/16498 you state that her supposed father
> died in March: "Seems like her 58 year old father died of cancer on
> March the 19th. And has been burried since then."
>
> *** I challenge you to find your claimed reference where Elizabeth stated
> her father died in June!!!! Elizabeth had no problem answering my politly
> phrased questions including details about her fathers death.
>
> So just what is going on here? Just when did Daddy supposedly die?
>
> *** As stated by Trygve, he died of cancer on the 19th of March 2001.
>
> > She has repeatedly asked me to give her an account number that she
> > can pay in money on, something I have not yet done.
>
> I have noticed 'her' anxiety, nay insistence, on getting your account
> number and advise caution (I particularly refer to the two emails
> above). If 'Elizabeth' is a journalist what happens then? "GOTCHA!:
> Money grubbing body freezers try cheating grieving daughter out of life
> savings?" Please Trygve, you may be safe in Norway but there are a bunch
> or cryonicists in Australia who do not need that sort of attention. Your
> desire to set up a cryonics facility may be well intended but the
> history of cryonics indicates that such facilities need to be supported
> by a decent sized and committed organisation to have any long term
> chance of survival.
>
> *** If I were in Elizabeths position I may also wish to get the funds
> transferred as soon as possible so as to expedite matters. She is acting
in
> a manner consistent with her desperate desire to try save her father.
Trial
> by media is not something I am going to spend my whole life running from -
> of course you can if you want to. I'll fight back.
>
> > All my services so far has been free of charge and done from
> > good will.
>
> I'm not doubting that. I am saying that you could end up looking foolish
> and damaging the cause of cryonics in Australia and elsewhere.
>
> *** See my comment about fear of media below
>
> Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on your longer term goal of helping
> others to set up a European facility rather than spend effort on this
> case?
>
> *** If he is looking from his own personal perspective then he would
> probably be better off without this case but I think he is trying to do
> what HE feels is RIGHT, not what you or me or the media think. If he feels
> it is the right thing to do then he would be putting himself first if he
> were to avoid this case and that does not appear to be consistent with his
> character. I hope someone cares that much if I should miss the (cryonics)
> boat.
>
> > So far I have posted her name and e-mail address to the cryonet.
> > I could post her phone number and regular address,
> > if she has no objection to this.
>
> I think several of us would be interested. Strangely 'Elizabeth' has not
> responded to either myself or Veronica Sullivan's request for further
> information regarding herself:
>
> HERE I AM 'ELIZaBEHT': RIHGHT HEREON THE GROUNDIN AUSTRLIA. I KNOW (FACE
> TO FACE) ALL THE MELBRNE CRYONIICISTS AND MST OFTHE REST IN THE
> COUNNTRY. WHERE ARE YOU, WHO ARE YOU, AND WHEENDIDd YOUR FATHER DIE? I
> ASSUnME TRYGVE HAS FORWARDED MY EmAIL OF YESTERDAY
> http://WWW.CRYONET.ORG/ARCHIVE/16699 AND I'D LIKE A RESPONSE.
>
> *** Would you reply to anyone who deliberatly wrote such a sarcastic and
> pathetic troll? Your actions in writing this are nothing less than that of
> an 8 year old spoilt brat. You deliberatly go out of your way to make fun
> of her english skills, her typing skills, her spelling skills and her use
> of case. You then ask a barrage of questions and follow it up with what
> sounds like a demand for a reply. Not a single word of consideration or
> compassion - is that a reflection of your personality?
> *** It is to your own detriment that you write such a letter - others will
> judge you on such actions. I already did.
> *** As for giving you Elizabeths regular address or phone number, I
> personally won't gve it to you since I don't believe that would be in her
> intrest to recieve further abuse from you.
>
> > It is my impression that she had contacted Alcor and had been turned
> > down by these before I heard of her.
>
> It is Alcor's right to choose whether to take non-members. You are
> surely aware of the risk of doing so and respect their right?
>
> *** It is also a risky road to take when it seems plain that it was not
> refused because of the state of the body. Alcor will store decomposing
> bodies of signed up members and if my understanding is correct has already
> done so. If Alcor is going to start making arbitrary judgements on the
> matter, it could end up with people being denied based on other issues
such
> as nationality. What about if a convicted murderer requests to be frozen
> after his execution, will Alcor allow membership and then freeze him/her?
> What level of criminal history will Alcor draw the line at? What other
> things might Alcor find ethically repugnant? What about political refugees
> or people like Salmon Rushdie? Would they turn him away because the
> newspapers would have a field day. What if someone accuses you of
something
> of which you are 100% innocent, rape, murder, pedophilia or necrophilia
etc
> trial by media and kiss away your chance of suspension. Fear of publicity
> should NOT be the determining factor!
>
> > I have not yet verified her wherabouts or if she can afford
> > what she claims, An established cryonics provider would of
> > course do that as its first step.
>
> I'm not sure of your point here Trygve. I think you badly need to verify
> her wherabouts, at the very least.
>
> *** It would appear that he has limited resources and would appreciate any
> help he can get from the so called "cryonics community".
>
> ...
> ...
>
>
> > I have been in touch with the Australian consulate in Norway,
> > so that they can assist Elizabeth, once I am ready to organize
> > a facility, I will ask the Norwegian consulate in Australia
> > and a local bank to assist in veryfing what it is of
> > value to verify, before signing any contract.
>
> Mate, maaate, take it from me: I've never found the buggers to be of any
> use. Help from an Australian embassy or consulate? Sheeesh!!
>
> *** Judging by your email to Elizabeth, I am hardly surprised that you
> haven't had too much sucess, perhaps a course in communication skills is
in
> order. I found them to be very helpful and friendly when approached the
> right way.
>
> Look, thanks again for being upfront regarding what 'Elizabeth' has told
> you but I think I've made my opinion quite clear. While I'll read your
> reply please don't expect me to engage in a daily exchange for long.
>
> *** Your response or otherwise is entirely up to you.
>
> *** My involvment with Elizabeth has been positive to try to help her. I
> have done the right things for her and will continue to try to help her. I
> do not support the suspension of her father but only because I believe
that
> she is emotionally too unstable to rationalise her decisions (based on
> information you have not seen). I will not stand in her or Trygve's way -
I
> simply will not assist is freezing her father. I will still be activly
> involved in helping her to arrange suspensions for her self, her mother
and
> her sister if she chooses including setting up a suspension facility here
> or overseas if the other organisations refuse them membership. I do not
> believe she is lying - I know more about her than you do because I have
> written POLITELY to her and recieved several responses and done a bit of
> simple research. This leads me to believe that she is not a journalist.
> Your actions so far ave been very VERY unAustralian.
>
> Long life,
> *** provided you fit Simons and the medias criteria
>
> Simon
>
>
> Chris Benatar
>
>
Received on Thu Jun 28 08:23:27 2001